The European Union

[Caleb1A]

What are your thoughts regarding the European Union (particularly the controversy surrounding David Cameron)?

Here is my opinion: Why is giving the people a voice a bad thing? If the population of a country wishes to leave the EU or at least renegotiate the existing conditions of its membership, why is that wrong? People claim Cameron is a coward for promising his people a choice, but the real cowards are those afraid of democracy in action. The EU has become infested with socialists, those which harbour ill-tidings towards democracy.

Hopefully, this has incited rational anger in some of you. Your thoughts?

[snowboarder1992]

What are your thoughts regarding the European Union (particularly the controversy surrounding David Cameron)?

Here is my opinion: Why is giving the people a voice a bad thing? If the population of a country wishes to leave the EU or at least renegotiate the existing conditions of its membership, why is that wrong? People claim Cameron is a coward for promising his people a choice, but the real cowards are those afraid of democracy in action. The EU has become infested with socialists, those which harbour ill-tidings towards democracy.

Hopefully, this has incited rational anger in some of you. Your thoughts?

some could also argue that the EU is full of money clutching corporates. Hopefully the EU will fall apart soon, but I hope the Euro sticks, its nice having a universal currency

[Caleb1A]

some could also argue that the EU is full of money clutching corporates. Hopefully the EU will fall apart soon, but I hope the Euro sticks, its nice having a universal currency

But see, the euro is part of the problem in my eyes. Why should the citizens of economically advanced nations be forced to support governments which have made poor fiscal decisions? Should not the nations such as Greece, Italy, and Spain be forced to "own up" (if you will) to their own mistakes, rather than punishing the citizens of the responsible nations?

[snowboarder1992]

I just like being able to cross boarders and not worry about whether i have to exchange my currency or not. I say let Greece fail.

[Caleb1A]

But that is not possible with the euro. If Greece falls, the euro will become even more of a nightmare than it is presently.

[GSArora]

The point of that guarantee is, when a country like Germany is in financial trouble, the others can prop it up. Not that I agree with the Euro, however I think thats why it exists.

[Caleb1A]

But should the other member states support a nation experiencing this trouble? I believe that this is the core question which many people ignore when discussing the topic. And if so, to what extent should that member be helped?

What about the referendum issue? Is David Cameron in the wrong for promising such?

[LaBonneEtoille]

I think they probably should do more checking and applying more rigorous checks to countries wishing to join the union but apart from that I don't mind being in the EU. The Euro wouldn't be in trouble if they had more rigorous requirements but I am happy with the pound tbh.

I also think less people want to leave than the Tories think and it would actually be pretty detrimental to our economic growth if we were to leave right now.

[michaelyin]

I'd like a vote in Sweden aswell, so i can vote no. We gain nothing from it, just ridiculous laws and regulations, and tons of money disappearing into it. I'm all for cooperation between the European countries, but EU itself is just bad news. Ideally I'd much rather see a Nordic union.

[Evlmstr]

Even today some credible historians predict that Europe will eventually lapse back into it's old ways and have another major war. The EU has helped bring unprecedented peace and prosperity to the continent, so I don't cheer for its demise.

[kLz]

The EU comes from a great idea but it should only have been between France and Germany back in the days anyway.

Nowaday we are giving money to a bunch of ***s and countries fall into socialism which is a countdown until we're all fucked.

As michaelyin said: cooperation but not union.

Switzerland ftw.

[Am__I]

The referendum promise is meaningless, as it won't actually happen.

Cameron promised purely to appease his MPs and stop him losing votes to UKIP in the next election. After the vote on boundaries today, the chance of the Conservatives winning the 2015 election and holding the referendum in 2017 as planned is pretty small. And Labour oppose having a referendum, so it is a moot point.

As for Europe, I'm happy being in the EU, but having the Pound instead of the Euro. In general, I think the Eurozone is going to integrate further and deeper, whilst countries like the UK & Sweden will become periphery members of the EU.

But to be honest, many aspects of the EU annoy me. Huge subsidies for French (and other) farmers, increased powers in an unelected European Commission and complete inability to act collectively overseas. The Anglo-French military alliance shows far more promise than the dreams of a European military, given that the likes of Germany refuse get involved in even a simple conflict on our doorstep, like Libya.

[Mr_Quick]

Even today some credible historians predict that Europe will eventually lapse back into it's old ways and have another major war.

Rather like how some doctors believe in homeopathy and other forms of bullshit New Age "medicine".

[Am__I]

There could feasibly be a war with Russia and the EU on opposing sides (assuming you count Russia as a part of Europe).

[Ali-31]

the EU can be rather irritating
but I think it's better to be in it in a situation similar to what we have now rather than in the Eurozone or out of the EU altogether

since the Conservatives probably won't get re-elected it's a bit irrelevant, and the EU in-out polls have taken a rather interesting turn over the last month anyway: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/6879

also lol @ UKIP. all the TV networks had Farage come into a big white room to watch Cameron's speech so they could see his reaction. You could see he didn't enjoy the experience, and that pleased me immensely

[Evlmstr]

Rather like how some doctors believe in homeopathy and other forms of bullshit New Age "medicine".

I wouldn't exactly call guys like Donald Kagan fringe historians. The idea of another major European war somewhere down the line is not far-fetched

[Mr_Quick]

I wouldn't exactly call guys like Donald Kagan fringe historians.

Even well-respected experts aren't immune to saying ridiculous things when discussing subjects that are beyond their expertise. For instance, take James Watson's curious notion that Africans are too stupid to improve the current situation on the continent.

That said, what exactly did Kagan say on the subject? I can't find anything on Google.

The idea of another major European war somewhere down the line is not far-fetched

Simply put, economic interdependency and nuclear weapons make large-scale military actions between great powers deeply implausible. Anything beyond a border skirmish will not happen between major European powers unless modern civilization as we know it collapses.

[Caleb1A]

Whether the UK referendum actually happens is irrelevant. The PM has stirred thought and action in other member states. For example, there is a legitimate petition circulating the Netherlands regarding a referendum for EU membership. These thoughts and actions cannot be simply dismissed. There are legitimate concerns which need to be addressed within the Union, and though I don't "cheer for its demise" either, I do believe in reform and, if necessary (and with regret), dissolution.

[Evlmstr]

That said, what exactly did Kagan say on the subject? I can't find anything on Google.

Neither could I. I have a hard copy of an interview of him that I saved from high school, but I'm in my dorm now and the article is back at home. I'll try to remember to post it once I get the name because it is quite an insightful piece. And iirc, he takes issue with the idea that nuclear weapons can prevent war between great powers and actually gives decent reasons

Simply put, economic interdependency and nuclear weapons make large-scale military actions between great powers deeply implausible. Anything beyond a border skirmish will not happen between major European powers unless modern civilization as we know it collapses.

I'm not saying that a major war is probable, but it is certainly possible. Given how much the world has changed since our grandparents were born, it would be sheer folly to believe that the state of the world today will endure until you and I are old men. Maybe the political stability of Europe will be better, and maybe it will be worse. And as an on-and-off contrarian, I believe in at least seriously considering the alternative to the rosy picture.

Bottom line: keep the EU around

[Mike5055]

A joint monetary union without a joint fiscal union is just asking for trouble.