WA&P Lounge

[Mr_Quick]

You honestly think that going from King Jong Il to Kim Jong-un constitutes "new management" in North Korea? That's adorable.



Now if the power dynamic between the U.S. and North Korea were the same power dynamic as between you and a potential employer... this would still be a woeful argument on your part.

This is going well.

Ehhh....let's reverse course a moment. What broader political implications do you believe NK's rejection of the food-aid deal will/should have?

[fball51]

This is going well.

Ehhh....let's reverse course a moment. What broader political implications do you believe NK's rejection of the food-aid deal will/should have?

By our recent standards, it is.

I think it shows, once again, that there are some regimes with which negotiating without preconditions is folly. I think it shows that going hat in hand to a nation that can't feed itself is a mistake. I think that approaching North Korea just on their basis as opposed to linking it with broader issues was a mistake. What I mean by that is going to China and saying, you want us to give NK food aid so that mass starvation doesn't flood your border with refugees. We want you to back tougher sanctions on Iran.

So on and so forth. At the very least, it gives Romney the ability to attack Obama's policy of engagement with North Korea and slap an ad together that says the same thing will happen with Iran but with much higher stakes.

[rocklobster-]

I think I'm drunk. Lol.

[Mr_Quick]

By our recent standards, it is.

I think it shows, once again, that there are some regimes with which negotiating without preconditions is folly. I think it shows that going hat in hand to a nation that can't feed itself is a mistake. I think that approaching North Korea just on their basis as opposed to linking it with broader issues was a mistake. What I mean by that is going to China and saying, you want us to give NK food aid so that mass starvation doesn't flood your border with refugees. We want you to back tougher sanctions on Iran.

So on and so forth. At the very least, it gives Romney the ability to attack Obama's policy of engagement with North Korea and slap an ad together that says the same thing will happen with Iran but with much higher stakes.

Okay. My issue with criticizing the food-aid deal in this manner is this: what proven alternatives are you basing this judgment on? You're criticizing the deal in a way that suggests to me that existing policy was working just fine until Obama fucked everything up. Given that NK has been saber-rattling like this for decades now, that seems like an odd way to view the situation. The latest missile test was hardly the first time North Korea has given the West a double middle-digit salute, and it probably won't be the last; the salient difference this time seems to be that NK ended up with more egg on their face than usual, which is actually a positive step. A small one, granted, and one that's likely to be reversed fairly quickly (as the Guardian article mentioned, Obama is unlikely to stick his neck out for NK again after this), but a positive step nonetheless.

In short, for one I contest the idea that the food-aid deal was a complete failure; my initial impression has been that it has sown a few seeds that could yet bear diplomatic fruit if the US is willing to refrain from taking actions that would equate to salting the earth. For two, what's your preferred alternative and why?

[DefenderOfSeaCows]

"Hey I'll go back to that one website for shits and giggles"

*bitch slapped with the ugliest web design of all time.

[fball51]

Okay. My issue with criticizing the food-aid deal in this manner is this: what proven alternatives are you basing this judgment on?

There are very few proven strategies that translate across space, time, and differing nations. But it is instructive in pointing to how say... Libya gave up their WMD programs: a very large stick (or the threat of mostly) and then a carrot should things go well. But you don't offer the carrot before.

You're criticizing the deal in a way that suggests to me that existing policy was working just fine until Obama fucked everything up.

I'm saying that President Obama, and the country, would have been better served not agreeing to the package without pre-conditions. Or, hell, even offering the food aid before getting something first. At best it displays a naivete towards one of the most disingenuous regimes in human history, at worst a blatant ignorance of how diplomacy works.

And no, things need not be going perfect in order for Obama's decision to be a fuck up.

Given that NK has been saber-rattling like this for decades now, that seems like an odd way to view the situation. The latest missile test was hardly the first time North Korea has given the West a double middle-digit salute, and it probably won't be the last; the salient difference this time seems to be that NK ended up with more egg on their face than usual, which is actually a positive step.

Imagine the egg on their face if they'd done it because they hadn't gotten an offer of food aid in the first place and tried to use the missile test to get said food aid in the first place.

And it is BECAUSE they have so consistently told the U.S. and the world to go fuck ourselves, that one wonders what in the HELL Obama was thinking in making the decision he did.

A small one, granted, and one that's likely to be reversed fairly quickly (as the Guardian article mentioned, Obama is unlikely to stick his neck out for NK again after this), but a positive step nonetheless.

It's small in isolation. It is not small when you look at the larger picture: that President Obama displays naivete and drum circle logic in dealing with regimes like North Korea, Iran, and Russia (how's the reset going again?).

In short, for one I contest the idea that the food-aid deal was a complete failure; my initial impression has been that it has sown a few seeds that could yet bear diplomatic fruit if the US is willing to refrain from taking actions that would equate to salting the earth. For two, what's your preferred alternative and why?

By what definition was it not a failure? What seeds has it sown if you yourself point out that this continues the pattern of bullshit that NK has always done? So what new seeds would be implanted in this harvest of fail and AIDS?

My preferred alternative is to premise negotiations with NK on China's support for action against Iran. China needs NK to not go through another famine to avoid a refugee crisis on their border. Then we premise negotiations on inspectors being on the ground first, before any offer of aid is even considered.

[Evlmstr]

Guy who legally changed name to Obi-Wan Kenobi arrested for hit and run

loling at SW references in the comments section

[Armegeddon]

Is anyone still on this?

[Evlmstr]

If everyone is truly gone, I will rule supreme on this board. Of course lack of regulars would make my reign pretty meaningless

[fball51]

Graduating sucks. Don't ever do it.

[Mr_Quick]

Graduating sucks. Don't ever do it.

Way ahead of you, brah.

Also, you get Diablo 3 yet?

[fball51]

Way ahead of you, brah.

Also, you get Diablo 3 yet?

Touche.

And I have had it for awhile now. Baron51#1599 = My battle tag. I haven't played it in awhile, what with going through the atrocity of graduation and trying to get out of my apartment.

[Am__I]

Well hello dead forum - I am back from spending 4 months and all my savings travelling. Twas amazing. I also notice that Americans were a very rare species among the backpackers. Way more Canadians, Brits, Aussies (when in Asia), Germans, Swedes (Swedish girls, my God...), Dutch etc, which is peculiar considering the US pretty much has more people than all those countries combined.

Incidentally, I read all of Game of Thrones. Very good, but was pretty pissed when I realised I was reading 1000s of pages just to have to wait several more years for the final fucking two books.

[LightMagician]

If everyone is truly gone, I will rule supreme on this board. Of course lack of regulars would make my reign pretty meaningless

The board should be put out of its misery. Like those stupid ****s from the Iron Islands.

On a side note, I must post the obligatory ponies.

And the drafted specs for my new battlestation. http://i.imgur.com/eSfx3.png

Still can't figure out what I'm going to do for displays yet. Array of 3 1440p monitors, projector or 70" tv. I just don't know.

[Evlmstr]

The board should be put out of its misery. Like those stupid ****s from the Iron Islands.

Keep the badasses though, e.g. Victarion

[fball51]

Nobody expects nets! NOBODY!

[Am__I]

A lot of people in the UK heard of Romney for the first time today.

He made a great first impression.

[Evlmstr]

It put a bit of a dampener on Romney's meeting with David Cameron on Thursday. "We are holding an Olympic Games in one of the busiest, most active, bustling cities anywhere in the world," the prime minister said, pointedly. "Of course it's easier if you hold an Olympic Games in the middle of nowhere." (Romney ran the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake Ciy, Utah.)

British humor win.

[Armegeddon]

Posting

[Schadenfreude-]

I miss this place. Even though I was a thorn in your necks.